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[讨论] 希腊骗子倒债的几率

有多大?


现在离三月中下旬还有一个月。这段时间够用来准备发行,赶印希腊纸币吗?好像他们还没有动作?

政客肯定不傻,倒债的苦果不仅是别人难以承担的,连他们自己都会一文不名。所以喊喊口号和投票是两码事。

骗子们拖了两年,现在再也不能糊弄下去了。其实像爱尔兰当时那样知耻而勇,现在经济也许已经开始步上正轨了。
我们公司的ceo 今天开会讲2011年的earning. 好像我们公司也在bailout欧洲, 希腊已经680天没有给钱了, 葡萄牙也有300多天了, 可是还是继续要货。我们不给的话, 医院全部关门。
本帖最后由 芹筱蒿 于 2014-10-26 01:11 编辑

不想再说什么,已经无话可说。一遍一遍的说互相尊重,结果毫无成效。曾经被丫丫论坛自由开朗的风气吸引,今天因为没有言论自由离去。谢谢曾经和我辩论和我玩笑的坛友。但我没办法待在一个独裁一言堂。
再见,对于某些人,只能祝福了。
感觉他们觉得就是战争,现在也不能把他们变奴隶还债,根本不想改变自己的生活。
本帖最后由 何鸿燊 于 2012-2-12 00:20 编辑

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Why would Greece accept more pain when unemployment is at 21 percent, the economy is enduring its fifth year of recession and rioters are hurling gasoline bombs in the streets of Athens?

Because the alternative might be worse.

Greek leaders are gritting their teeth as they move forward with a plan to further slash spending in return for a bailout of about $172 billion from other countries in Europe and around the world. The Greek Parliament is scheduled to vote on the plan Sunday.

Greece is trapped in a lose-lose predicament: It must deepen an austerity plan begun in 2010 that will throw many more people out of work. Or it must default on its debts, abandon Europe's single currency and see its banking system implode.

"The choice we face is one of sacrifice or even greater sacrifice — on a scale that cannot be compared," Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said.

Here is a closer look at Greece's two bleak options:

—Impose deep spending cuts in exchange for the bailout.

The pros:

Greece needs the bailout to make a $19.1 billion  bond payment due March 20. Prime Minister Lucas Papademos warned that "a disorderly default would cast our country into a catastrophic adventure."

Papademos said the plan would help lift Greece out of recession next year.

In addition to the $172 billion bailout, Greece is negotiating a deal that would reduce the roughly $264 billion in debt it owes private creditors. Under that arrangement, about $132 billion would be shaved off the national debt and Greece would get more favorable repayment terms.

Selling government-owned companies, exposing professionals like architects and pharmacists to more competition and imposing other reforms is designed to make the economy more efficient in the long run.

Even with the austerity plan in place, the International Monetary Fund estimates it will be 2020 by the time Greece can shrink its debt load to a sustainable level.

The cons:

Such austerity can be counterproductive because it can slow the economy and reduce tax revenue.

The government acknowledges that the austerity plan would cause Greece's economy to shrink 4 percent to 5 percent this year. Without it, the government would expect the economy to contract just 2.8 percent. The plan includes lowering the minimum wage by 22 percent and laying off 15,000 government workers this year.

So far, austerity has done nothing to reduce Greece's debt burden. Government debt as a percentage of the economy actually grew after it began imposing austerity — to nearly 160 percent in the July-September quarter of 2011 from 139 percent a year earlier.

"The whole plan was a losing proposition," says Dimitri Papadimitriou, president of the Levy Economics Institute and professor at Bard College.

Austerity is causing widespread hardship and inflaming social tensions. Papdimitriou worries that Greek society is "disintegrating" under the strain: "Poverty has been increasing, homeless rates have been increasing."

So have crime and suicides.





—Default and drop the euro.

The pros:

Defaulting on its debt would ease the immediate strain on Greece's finances and probably cause it to abandon the euro, the currency used by 17 countries.

Dropping the euro would leave Greece with a much cheaper currency, its own drachma. That would juice Greece's economy by making Greek products less expensive around the world. This would give Greek exporters a competitive edge.

In the 1990s, Canada used a weak currency to expand exports and grow its way out of high government debts, says Simon Tilford, chief economist at the Centre for European Reform in London. As long as it's shackled to the euro, Greece lacks that option.

Bernard Baumohl, chief global economist at the Economic Outlook Group, thinks economic and financial pressure will eventually drive Greece to drop the euro.

And he thinks that would be for the best.

"What is worse for Europe — to have this matter linger on and on, with European citizens having to continue to bail out Greece and Portugal? Or to face the reality that these countries should not have joined the euro in the first place?" Baumohl asks.

The cons:

Exiting the euro would throw Greece's banking system into chaos. Lenders would panic over the prospect of being repaid not in euros but in drachmas of dubious value. Adopting a suddenly much weaker currency could also ignite Greek inflation because prices of imported goods would soar.

International investors would be reluctant to lend to Greece's government, its companies or its banks. The freeze-up in credit could cause a depression, worse than what Greece is suffering now. Economists at UBS estimate that Greece's economy would shrink by up to 50 percent if it left the eurozone.

The pain would also likely spread as European banks absorbed losses on their loans to Greece. The worst-case scenario: A disaster akin to what followed Lehman Brothers' collapse in September 2008. Banks grew too fearful to lend to each other. Credit froze worldwide.

Some economists would like to see European governments produce a rescue package that pairs government cuts and reforms with economic aid designed to spur growth in Greece.

"When you have over 20 percent unemployment, you need to do something," Papadimitriou says.

He wants European countries to propose something like the U.S. aid plan that rescued an impoverished Europe after World War II.

"You need something similar to the Marshall Plan," Papadimitriou says.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOuN18vsbHc
陶冬:希臘現變局 最終3月可望度過難關 英倫謀寬鬆 美歐日陸續跟進



牛步,停了一停。上週市場的基調依然是增加風險資產配置,資金繼續流出美債,歐元反彈、美元回落,股市、商品價格上揚,不過聲勢已不如前。倫敦布蘭特石油一度突破每桶118美元,創下去年八月以來新高。但是周五傳出歐盟拒絕接受希臘的財政緊縮方案,並推遲發放救援資金;希臘內閣在兩天內有六名議員辭職,抗議緊縮措施。希臘危機再度成為市場之焦點。禍不單行,S&P調低意大利34家銀行的信用評級,歐債恐慌復燃。風險指數VIX一夜間飆升超過10%,美國十年期國債利率再次跌落至2%以下,資金重投避險天堂。



歐洲債務危機,從來沒有結束。事實上,三月份對於歐債、歐元是一道不低的坎。希臘面臨3月下旬145億歐元債券到期,急需國際救援。可是它與民間債權人的減債談判至今尚無結果,與公共債權人的交涉也時進時退,歐盟、德國、歐洲央行與IMF根本就是同床異夢。最嚴重的是,希臘執政黨與反對黨在削赤問題上,進入了“囚徒困境”狀態,紛紛揣測對方的意向出牌、博弈,在國內,出爾反爾;對外部,企圖蒙混過關。

筆者認為希臘最終有希望度過三月難關,不過今後一個月可能還有戲劇性場面出現。除了希臘,意大利、西班牙和法國三月也有巨額債務到期,需要發新債償舊債,這不僅對歐洲央行的LTRO計劃是一個考驗,對市場的神經也是一個考驗。

英格蘭銀行上週重啟QE計劃,加碼500億債券購買,將QE規模提高到3250億英鎊。伯南克也直指房地產是美國經濟復甦的掣肘。筆者相信,美歐日英在今年上半年均會祭出自己形式上的QE,試圖以增加流動性來緩解結構性經濟難題。

本週市場焦點:希臘局勢和歐洲利率。週一,日本第四季度GDP,預計-0.3% vs上期的1.4%。週三日本銀行例會,料政策無改變;同日歐元區第四季度GDP,-0.4% vs 0.2%。週四美國一月新屋動工,675K vs 657K。週五美國CPI,環比0.2% vs 0.0%。

陶冬的部落格:http://blog.cnyes.com/My/taodong/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOuN18vsbHc
拆東墻補西墻 希臘失信讓歐盟失望
鉅亨網新聞中心 (來源:財匯資訊,摘自:證券時報) 2012-02-13 03:58:01  


盡管希臘政府表示同意實施新的緊縮措施,但歐盟還是不愿意“給錢”,并開出了三大條件。或許,希臘的失信行為已經激怒了債主,更激怒了歐盟伙伴國。

希臘總理帕帕季莫斯早在9日就宣布,希臘各政黨領袖已就新緊縮措施達成一致。但在隨后幾小時內,國際貨幣基金組織(IMF)和歐元區財長均表示仍將繼續就救助方案內容進行討論,歐元集團主席、盧森堡首相容克更給出了三大條件。首先,希臘議會必須在12日通過希臘與歐盟、IMF和歐洲央行三方代表團就救援計劃達成的協議;其次,希臘政府盡快提出再削減3.25億歐元開支的方案,以實現2012年減赤目標;再次,希臘執政各黨作出實施改革計劃的堅定政治承諾。

“堅定政治承諾”的字眼顯示出歐盟對希臘已失去信心。其實,希臘債務危機爆發兩年多以來,希臘承諾的每一項緊縮和改革措施都沒有落到實處,包括仍沒有實現稅收和赤字削減目標、公務員裁員計劃延遲以及私有化進程才剛剛開始。

往往在歐盟和IMF準備“給錢”之前,希臘領導人都會忙著給出各種各樣的承諾,這一次也不例外。由於不滿政府為獲得第二輪救援貸款擬采取的新緊縮和改革措施,近期希臘內閣已有6名部長級官員辭職。對此,帕帕季莫斯表示,不支持協議的官員“請自己走人”,“違約不是我們會允許發生的情況”。

不過,一旦貸款到手,有關希臘緊縮措施落實問題就乏人問津了。“在過去的兩年內,希臘做出了很多的承諾。當審視這些承諾的時候,你會發現有很大偏差。”環球透視經濟學家伊斯卡羅表示,“希臘已經失去信用。”

如果希臘議會投票通過新救援方案,定於本周三召開的歐元區財長會議將會敲定向希臘撥放第二輪救助貸款議程。如果該方案被否決,希臘最早會在3月份出現債務違約,并面臨退出歐元區的危險。

無論給希臘輸多少血,債務危機依然未見起色。希臘的失信行為已將歐盟和各大債主的耐心逼到了極限,他們對希臘一次又一次的保證或承諾已感到厭倦。對於希臘而言,拆東墻補西墻的日子還要繼續過下去。說不定在不久的將來,希臘又要開口索要第三輪援助了。


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOuN18vsbHc
德財長:承諾緊縮已不夠 希臘需重建競爭力 就算得退出歐元
鉅亨網編譯張正芊 綜合外電  2012-02-13  09:40    

德國財政部長 Wolfgang Schaeuble 周日 (12 日) 嚴詞表示,希臘承諾採取財政緊縮措施,已不足以取信於人,因食言太多次了。他呼籲,希臘這樣宛如「無底洞」的行徑,必須劇烈改變。

Schaeuble 接受德國《世界報 (Die Welt)》訪問時指出,希臘作出的承諾「對我們來說已不夠」;他強調,希臘雖又計畫新一波財政緊縮措施,但必須先貫徹先前通過的緊縮方案,確實節省開支。

Schaeuble 引述民調,指出大部分德國民眾願意協助希臘,「但 (援助) 不能是無底洞,這很重要」;因此希臘最終必須有所節制,因為人們現在開始了解到,無底洞是幫不完的。

Schaeuble 同時對希臘喊話,表示能否留在歐元區,決定權掌握在希臘手上。他強調,希臘必須「做好自己的功課」,重建國家競爭力,才能獲得援助;甚至必須退出歐元區,也在所不惜。

不過 Schaeuble 補充,幾乎沒有人認為希臘會退出歐元區,德國也會盡力阻止發生;但就算發生了,希臘仍舊是歐洲的一部分。

Schaeuble 說,現在看來,援助希臘比 1990 年東西德統一工作更艱難,原因是他們意識到,希臘還有很多人沒了解到必須劇烈改變。


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOuN18vsbHc
no more Lehman Brothers
~心宽灵深爱永远~
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